Blacksmith revamp

[JamietheFlameUser]

I think we all agree that Alan, after a certain point in the game, is going to be the party's blacksmith. But quite frankly, I'm sick of this whole "reset the game repeatedly until you get what you want" nonsense. As such, I propose a revamp to the blacksmithing system. The way my idea works is:

Rusty weapon + Forgeable material (+ consumable item, generally offensive psynergy items) = newly forged weapon

So, for example, to forge Excalibur:

Rusty Sword (late-game) + Orihalcon + Timer

Because rusty weapons come at various stages in the game, this allows the player freedom to choose their weapon, while still allowing us the ability to control the strength of weapons the player is allowed.

For armour, I was thinking:

Non-artifact armour + Forgeable material (+ consumable item, generally offensive psynergy items) = newly forged armour.

This, again, allows us to give the player freedom to choose the armour they want, while allowing us to control the power of the armour based on what non-artifact armours they have available through shops.

Also, I would suggest avoiding any such nonsense as "recipes" like they use in some games, as that again removes the player's freedom of choice in regards to weapons and armours.

[Rolina]

I don't know about using Rusty weapons - those are typically in limited supply, and are just polished back up to their original state.  I suggest having something different - like a mold you use.  I know this is how Summon Night Swordcraft Story did it in the second and third games - Mold, Base Material, and Mod Material.

The problem I have, though, is how to support this - because that's a lot of things we'll have to make if there's no recipe system.

[Salanewt]

This seems fair enough, though I wouldn't mind making it so people can choose whether they want to use all three items or not. However, there are already multiples of each rusty weapon, so... I guess we will need to plan out how rusty equipment should work.

Armour: What about rusted or shattered armour?

Oh, and something that would be nice is if the odd enemy has a rare chance of dropping said rusty item.


All in all, it seems like a cool idea. I agree with Role on the difficulty part though, since it might be pointless to do this if it is too much of a hassle to code. If we can pull it off, then it would be a fun idea. What does everyone else think?

[Rolina]

It's not a hassle with the code, sala - the issue is room.  We'd have to make an item for every combination.  That's a LOT of items, dood.  I don't know if we have the space.

[Misery]

Cool stuff, I'm sick of resetting for items as well. This idea makes me think of the smithing system in Star Ocean, where you combine an ordinary weapon and a metal. Maybe we could do something similar, like:
Weapon/armor + forgeable material + magical item = custom equipment

Using a rusted weapon for forging doesn't seem like the greatest idea to me though, I think it would be more sensible to just make those like in the original, except maybe with some additional requirement for restoring them (since if stuff can be forged anytime, it would be no different from just finding the item).

Say we have 3 rarities of mineral/metal, and 4 kinds of magical items (one for each element). That would be 12 forgeable items total per item group. I'd count armor as a single group, and I haven't been keeping track of how many weapon types we're using, but I think there's enough space.

...that still seems like a bit much though. Maybe 4-5 rarities of mineral/metal, and 4 different forgeable weapons and armors per material. That would make the selection a little more like the original. That's assuming all weapons are treated the same, ditto for armor.

For the strongest crafted equipment, you could require artifact equipment instead, and only make them for the best forgeable material. So that's another 4 custom weapons and armors.

Hehe, looks like I came up with some ideas too...
Suggestions have been made with the item options in the editor in mind. The game keeps track on if an item is weapon or armor, and also if it is a rare item, so that would mean we can check items for those criteria in the code.

[leaf]

...Whatever happened to making a menu pop up where you just... you know... choose which item you want? I thought that was by far the simplest solution to the whole random blacksmith problem.

I do not agree with using either rusty weapons or normal weapons for this. Rusty weapons are limited in supply. Normal weapons have too much variety. If you went the latter route, it would require making forgeable items for every normal weapon or armor piece, from the beginning to the end of the game. And I highly doubt we even have the room to do that. We've got 17 basic weapons and 39 basic armors. If we were to make four additional variations on each of those, we'd have 56*4 = 224 different forgeable items, plus the original 56, plus the artifact weapons/armor, plus the consumables, plus the key items. We'd have well over 300 items when we can only fit 256.

And when did we decide on alan being the craftsman? That eliminates one of the only remaining uses of money in the game!

[Salanewt]

Oh yeah, I didn't think about it that way... Hm... The menu seems like the best idea to me at this point, to be honest. The general consensus seems to be that the blacksmith systems does need to be improved upon, but that it needs to be simpler than the proposed idea due to space limitations. Does this sound right?

Alan craftsman: I don't remember getting to that decision, actually... What could work if everyone wants him to be is that people charge you to use their anvils, and they charge depending on "how long" it will take to repair the weapon. This would still require varying fees based on what you are making, yet it would allow you to forge items in more than a single location.

[JamietheFlameUser]

The reason I suggested using rusted weapons is so that the player doesn't go off and FORGE EVERYTHING or somesuch nonsense.

Perhaps to save some space, we could leave some consumable options out for each material, so if you try to use a Weasel's Claw as an added consumable with a weapon+material combo that doesn't have any Jupiter variation, you'll get whatever item you would have received had you not used an added consumable at all.

Say, for instance, you try to add Crystal Powder to Rusty Axe + Orihalcum. Since there's no Mercury-elemental Orihalcum axe, you'd just get the Stellar Axe (Rusty Axe + Orihalcum). On the other hand, if you used an Oil Drop, you would get the Herculean Axe (Rusty Axe + Orihalcum + Oil Drop). Or we could make it so many combinations have no weapons WITHOUT a consumable, so if you give him those things and wait a while he'll eventually go "Hmm. I'm not making any progress on this." *turns to rest of party* "do you guys have any ideas what to use for another material? This just looks too plain..." *cue inventory screen being popped up if any characters have an item that works, otherwise he just leaves the project to rest for a while until you get a working item, at which point you can't start any new projects until you finish that one.*

We could also just have some materials not work for some weapon types, if it comes down to it.

A few recipes I have thought up so far:

Rusty Sword + Orihalcum + Timer = Excalibur

Rusty Blade + Orihalcum = Echoed Edge

Rusty Axe + Orihalcum = Stellar Axe
Rusty Axe + Orihalcum + Oil Drop = Herculean Axe

Rusty Hammer + Orihalcum = Justice Grand
Rusty Hammer + Orihalcum + Weasel's Claw = Mjolnir

Rusty Mace + Orihalcum = Galaxy Orb
Rusty Mace + Orihalcum + Vial = Blessed Mace

Rusty Sword + Golem Core = Giant Sword

Rusty Hammer + Golem Core = Tungsten Hammer
Rusty Hammer + Golem Core + Oil Drop = Meteor Head

Rusty Blade + Sylph Feather = Corsair's Edge
Rusty Blade + Sylph Feather + Weasel's Claw = Sylph Rapier
Rusty Blade + Sylph Feather + Oil Drop = Robber's Blade

@Sala: I LIKE that idea. The one about charging to use other people's anvils, that is.

[Kide]

...Whatever happened to making a menu pop up where you just... you know... choose which item you want? I thought that was by far the simplest solution to the whole random blacksmith problem.

Yeah, I think the exact same thing. I mean, the reason it used to be random was that Sunshine was being an ******* and doing whatever he felt like. Now that the the actual party members are deciding what to forge, just choosing from a list seems to be the best option.

I probably should warn you though, don't know if this will make you change your mind, but there's currently more than 256 slots available for items already. Magma Ball (the last item on list) gets slot 460, for instance.

[leaf]

Huh? Guess there were 512 slots then and I misremembered. Either way, taking up 224+ slots for the forge will not leave us much room, if the original games went all the way up to 460.

@sala: I like that idea, too. It would at least put some cost back into forging if we go this route.

[Misery]

Yeah, the menu is the simplest solution if we want to stay true to the classics. We just have to make sure all items are worth choosing for their own reasons (you'll still have to choose because of how hard it is to find materials).

My own reason for preferring a different system is that I think it's more fun if you have to work a bit for your equipment, as well as experiment with the different combinations. Also, you can only realistically forge accessories and small weapons like knives unless you brought a huge chunk of material, which is why you'd use another piece of equipment as the base. Not that we care about realism, though.

Anyway, you seem to have misunderstood my suggestion. I didn't mean to use item IDs to determine the forged item, just check if it's a weapon or armor. That means one weapon and one armor of each element per material. Maybe this could be a sidequest for some specific equipment rather than being the actual smithing system.

Alan craftsman: I don't remember getting to that decision, actually... What could work if everyone wants him to be is that people charge you to use their anvils, and they charge depending on "how long" it will take to repair the weapon. This would still require varying fees based on what you are making, yet it would allow you to forge items in more than a single location.

It's in his bio (craftsman), and I think I can vaguely remember a suggestion about giving him an equipment crafting ability... it hasn't been decided, but why not I guess? Your idea seems great anyway, it makes sense and works with the game.

[Rolina]

Aye, the forge would have 8 weapons, 3 head gear, 3 arm gear, 3 body gear, boots, and rings as the BASE.  That's a total of 19.  Then multiply by forgable materials.  Then again by mod materials.

Too many.

If you're going to do this approach, you NEED recipies.  Furthermore, you do NOT want to use rusty gear, since rusty gear has traditionally been polished.  I'd say just to use the Base Molds, like I suggested.  Then we can have a set of rusty weapons and be done with it.


The biggest problem for this system, IMO, is that the game doesn't have support for such a system.  A game like Summon Night is much better suited for it, since it's kind of built around it.  GS doesn't account for it.  You will need recipes, so just have them scattered around the world in bookshelves and stuff, and for failed attempts have a fallback gear.  95 pieces of gear, while a bit much, is still doable.  608 pieces, the rough minimalist estimate of what the system you laid out in the first post would need, is most definitely not.  If any consumable can be used for the mod material, then that changes it to well over 2,000 pieces of possible gear.

As I said in the Cbox - you needed to sell this better.  The idea right now looks like just a baseline, without any care or concern about what's actually doable in terms of the game's system, and without understanding of the sheer complexity of what you're proposing.  You should have put a lot more thought into this and really fleshed it out as best as you could - basically, you should have tried to sell it to us.

[JamietheFlameUser]

As I said in my last post, there are ways around that without actually having every consumable work for every material with every weapon type. Or, some materials with some weapon types may require a consumable: that is, there is no piece of equipment to be forged without a consumable. And while I'm normally against the very concept of recipes as used in most games, it is more justifiable here because Alan is not a master craftsman.

[Salanewt]

Hm... I have an idea that has been inspired by Jamie's idea. What if we were to have the rusty weapons/equipment like usual, and then we just combine raw materials with consumable items for everything else? When this is done, a menu will pop up with the equipment that you can make with those items? If not using a consumable, then you get a random item from that list. Oh, and these consumables would be chosen from a set of about 5-6, so we don't have to worry about every consumable in the game. However, not every consumable would be usable with every raw material.

If rusty weapons can only give you one weapon, then it won't tell you what will be crafted because there is only one item for it.


Oh, on the subject of raw materials, how should we go about doing them? Do we do it in tiers like in GS2, or should we do that with the consumables?

[ScarletFlames]

Bumping this because I had a rather strange idea.

Towns sell Rusty Weapons (that are unequippable), along with their boring old non-artifact weapons. Which towns give which rusty weapon is dependent on the town (but really, it's up to you fellows). Selecting [Use] on Rusty Weapons lets Alan begin planning out the reforging ([Insert Blacksmith mechanism here]). However, once Alan has decided what materials to use on the Rusted Weapon, he will say that he doesn't have enough time to do this right now, and that maybe he should do it later.

To trigger a weapon creation after this, simply sleep at an inn.

If this mechanic sounds familiar, then you have obviously played Earthbound and/or Mother 1.

[Today]

Today at 18:00:23

Teawater: By the way, I was wondering, did anyone else notice the ".gba" ROM in the Downloads section?

[Today]

Today at 16:54:26

JamietheFlameUser: Well, that particular Briggs fight was from a long time ago. I haven't been working on my current hack the past few days because of other stuff.

[Today]

Today at 16:40:10

Luna_blade: @Saturos: Your english exams?

[Today]

Today at 16:33:40

Teawater: Can't remember exactly what shae of yellow it was, so not sure it would be too close or not.

[Today]

Today at 16:30:58

Teawater: @KoP: Wouldn't Shiny Gold be for the Sol Clan?

[Today]

Today at 15:37:37

Salanewt: Oh wait, tag doesn't work down here. But yeah, how is your hack going Jamie?

[Today]

Today at 15:37:00

Salanewt: [me] considers giving him the Sol Blade...

[Today]

Today at 15:36:00

Salanewt: Oh my. To be honest though, I'd be more likely to give Briggs stuff from later regions; him being a pirate from another continent and all.

[Today]

Today at 09:36:58

JamietheFlameUser: How not to design boss fights: give human-type bosses stats and equipment on par for what the Editor says their level is and what equipment is available where they're from. You get stuff like an actually scaled to level 21 Briggs with a Great Sword, Silver Plate, Silver Helm, Vambrace, and Leather Boots. God, that was BS.

[Today]

Today at 09:09:49

Saturos: Wow first part of exam is ower (in english) tomorow speaking part.

[Today]

Today at 07:11:35

JamietheFlameUser: Eh, I didn't know the exact chance of Curse screwing you over. Still, that 6% chance to fail to act at all could screw you over when it matters most. The obvious solution, of course, is to stick that armour on a character who doesn't do anything but spam attack moves anyway.

[Today]

Today at 07:10:52

leaf: ...assuming I'm remembering the chance of curse taking effect correctly as 25%

[Today]

Today at 07:09:50

leaf: in fact, you get two turns the majority of the time (~56%), and only completely fail to act ~6%, the remainder of the time getting one action

[Today]

Today at 07:07:49

leaf: I like that stealth armor buff. it wouldn't make sense to do that with the clerics ring available, but if you remove that, it's actually an interesting item. On average, you get ~1.5 turns per round. it's potentially very strong, but carries risks

[Today]

Today at 07:04:59

leaf: lol

[Today]

Today at 06:39:21

JamietheFlameUser: Reading the Venus Psynergy topic and 'lol'ing at Role's reaction to a very simple spell idea I'd had (and still think is awesome), where rock explodes out of the ground from a single point in a focused, cone-shaped burst. Role read me the riot act about not combining elements again. lol.

[Today]

Today at 06:17:58

JamietheFlameUser: Well, one thing I came up with that was actually potentially cool is a modification to the Stealth Armour. I gave it +1 turns, under the assumption that the Cleric's Ring would be removed. You might get 2 actions that round, or 1 action, or maybe no actions at all! RNG at its finest.

[Today]

Today at 06:15:32

Knight of Purgatory: Nice orange text kain. Maybe it should be a shiny gold

[Today]

Today at 06:03:40

leaf: I concur. There isn't much I'd consider worth salvaging from dc in terms of work done, but reading the old threads can be quite amusing

[Today]

Today at 06:01:48

JamietheFlameUser: LOL I'm looking at the DCrisis Items/Equipment section. Role and I were both so immature about it (me especially) that it's hilarious in hindsight.

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